Paper Bags and Patience: A Post-Election Pep Talk with Takema Robinson – Transcript

Kirk: [00:00:00] Welcome to, let’s Hear It.

Eric: Let’s Hear. It is a podcast for and about the field of foundation and nonprofit communications produced by its two co-hosts, Eric Brown and Kirk Brown. No relation,

Kirk: who well said Eric. And I’m Kirk.

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Eric: So let’s get onto the show.

Kirk: Welcome in. Welcome back. Glad to see you. Glad you found us. We’ve had you. It’s, let’s hear it. You’re with us. There’s a lot of foundlings going on right [00:01:00] now. We’re finding things. You know, I heard recently somebody hates the expression, welcome in. It’s actually a pet peeve of theirs. Oh really? I pushed back.

Like, welcome in. You welcome. And you’re welcome.

Eric: Did you welcome them in as they were hating on it?

Kirk: I, I, I didn’t have the opportunity. It’s, I just thought it was interesting. It was, it was, it made them really angry. The expression made them really angry. Oh, interesting. It’s, it’s,

Eric: it’s, you know, it’s, it’s you Kirk,

Kirk: you know.

No, no. We’re welcome. They don’t hate

Eric: you. I’m saying that the expression’s very, you, you’re a welcome in sort of person. In another life, you’d have been a Walmart greeter.

Kirk: Uh, you know, and you know, you may, you may be surprised I might actually be a Walmart greeter already. This communication

Eric: thing doesn’t work out.

You might wanna hone those. Welcome in skills.

Kirk: So I suggest that we take a ride up the circular staircase. What do you think about that?

Eric: Longs are going up.

Kirk: Set this up. This is a great conversation.

Eric: Well, you know, I was kind of needing a little bit of. Well, okay, I take it back. I, I was excited to speak with Taima Robinson, [00:02:00] who’s the CEO and co-founder of a social justice consulting firm called Converge.

I just, yeah, looked at her work. She seemed really interesting and I, I thought this was gonna be an interesting conversation, but I didn’t realize how much I needed that conversation at that time. Hmm. And it was just after the election, so not that long ago. And as we speak right now, this is our last.

Episode of 2024. So we’re gonna lead folks with what I hope is, uh, a sense of optimism and, and hope going into the holiday season and thinking into the new year at a time when I think a lot of people are very, very correctly, myself included. Um, feeling a little, you know, worked Yeah.

Kirk (2): Kept

Eric: in a little troubled and, and my conversation with Temo.

Helped me, helped me go through that because she reminded me about long-term thinking. I won’t say too much more about it than that. Other than that, to Kima was a delight and just exactly what I needed that day.

Kirk: Yeah. As the year comes to, could, [00:03:00] closes, take a deep breath. Let’s restore ourselves. Let’s recognize we’re not defeated, and if you wanna listen to folks who understand this long arc of history as it bends towards justice and the folks stoking the flames and doing the bending.

It’s folks like Taima Robinson. So this was a great conversation. Eric, thank you for bringing Taima onto our air. So listen, this is Taima Robinson and let’s hear it.

Eric: Welcome to, let’s Hear It. My guest today is Taima Robinson, the CEO and co-founder of Converge, a black woman owned social justice consulting firm that’s helping to create a radically just new world where communities of color thrive.

Taima, thank you so much for speaking with me today. Thank you for

Takema: the invitation, Eric.

Eric: Uh, it’s a pleasure. So I guess my first question is, how you doing?

Takema: How am I doing? We’re sitting here, what has it been a week, just for the week post-election. So I have gone through probably all the [00:04:00] phases of grief. So maybe first and foremost, acknowledging that there is some grief energy that I am processing some collective grief as well, but I remain hopeful.

So that’s how I’m doing today.

Kirk (2): All right. I’m on

Takema: my third round of grief. It comes in round. It comes in round, it comes in waves. Eric,

Eric: I try to complete each round effectively, and then I start over. I have a 28-year-old child and I say to them, we’ve been through this before. We will be through this again.

If life is like a circular staircase where you feel like you’re in the same place, but actually you’re going up, then that’s okay too. We are just learning and. Growing and processing and all that other stuff. Well, Taima, I was so excited to learn about your work, and I’m always curious and eager to meet people who are supporting nonprofit organizations for-profit companies, other folks with an understanding of how do we help these organizations [00:05:00] or partner with them or use work together to advance social justice in.

All sorts of forms. And now you started this firm called Converge, and can you just tell me a little bit about it?

Takema: Yeah. Thank you so much. Love. Love our mission statement, which is to create a radical, just new world where communities of color thrive. And for us, that is really the spirit of what we do because we actually believe that particularly within the American context, when communities of color thrive, we all are thriving, right?

If we understand how this country was created, we know in the least of us. Are heard and supported, whether it be differently abled, people of color, that we all thrive from the innovations and the advancements that our society makes. To be inclusive of all of us, and I think we continue to lean into that mission.

I worked in New Orleans in the Gulf Coast post Katrina and I had come there from the [00:06:00] northeast where we were well resourced with nonprofits and philanthropic support. And here we are with the America’s largest natural disaster being Katrina. Hitting the Gulf Coast in 2005 and impacting some of the most vulnerable communities in our country in the deep South.

And so that really inspired me being on the front lines of that work, working in philanthropy at the time I got to. See the work of amazing nonprofit leaders who were doing so much with so little, even without the support of government. And that really inspired me to birth Converge. And what that was about was really trying to stand in the gap between those nonprofits.

And philanthropy and to be able to serve those leaders and those organizations on the front lines with consulting services for social justice. And so we’ve been proud to do that for the last 10 years and to watch many of those [00:07:00] leaders grow into the formidable national leaders that they are now leaders.

Because we certainly believe that the South of America is really the frontline for social justice in its nation and that those leaders. Particularly in this moment, have something to teach all of us.

Eric: That’s for sure. You now, your background. Now people come to this work from such interesting places, and as I’ve said many times that no little child climbs up into their parents, but mommy, daddy, I wanna go into nonprofit communications.

We just end up there and now you have a background in art. I do. Can you talk

Takema: about that? I do, and it really is my love. It is my passion. But interestingly, I think my love for both art and social justice come from. An inner yearning for liberation and whether it be finding liberation through creativity or finding liberation through social justice, I think much of the impetus of my life and my purpose [00:08:00] hadn’t been about finding and seeking freedom.

And so I actually see the two as the same thing. And I also think as I’ve. I majored in African American Studies and political science. There’s so much creativity that’s involved in those sciences. They’re more of a creative practice sometimes than a scientific practice. And I’ve learned a lot from artists about how to imagine a future, how to vision a world, right?

These are our imagineers and Yu I love sitting at that intersection of our culture. And justice, and I find that I am more of a creative than I am a scientist, and I bring that to the work of social justice and political design.

Eric: And this notion of using art as liberation I as I’m sitting here, gee, that’s such a good idea.

Why didn’t I think of that?

Takema: But you’re right. But you know what? But think about it. It’s the radical. So I talk a lot about [00:09:00] this concept of radical imagination and thinking about my own background as an African American. I think about my generations of my family that were born in bondage that had to imagine freedom they had to conceptually.

Find someplace in their imagination where they understood that the current condition that they were in was not humane and that. Their humanity demanded something more than that current condition, and that can only be found in their imagination if they had never seen it before. It can only be found in their humanity.

So to me, I’m always inspired by that, what people imagined for me, and I think a lot also about ancestry and. What people before me imagine and I get to live inside of their imagination. There’s a saying that says, I am my ancestors’ wildest dreams. I am a product of dreaming. I am a product of imagination.[00:10:00]

And that’s how I think about the fusion of those two things.

Eric: That’s so interesting. We often, we go straight to our intellectual. Hive minds when we think about a project or goals or any of this other kind of thing. And I grew up in the theater as well. I used to do art like I was an artistic person once, but you’re reminding me how important it is to, to use that creativity in ways that we don’t tend to do.

Can you talk just a little bit about your, how you bring, I, it’s obvious that you bring this into your work every second of the day. How does that go? I’m excited to hear about that.

Takema: Yeah. You know what’s so funny, Eric, we could talk for, for days about this because I actually used to run in high school.

That was all about integrating the arts and academics, and I just think where we are right now, even in America, we are starving. From a lack of imagination, we’re starving. Our society is starving. We need [00:11:00] imagineers, right? We need people who can imagine a more inclusive future, right? Where. Our humanity is more important than white supremacy or capitalism, but we have to imagine ourselves in there.

It is really the limitations from our imaginations, I think, that have our society stuck, right? We can’t imagine ourselves beyond these racial categories. We can’t imagine ourselves around these policy conundrums. We can’t imagine ourselves beyond a two party system. So a lot of what we’re facing is a crisis of imagination.

Eric: We just got through an election that was all about fear. All about fear, imagined fear. But it was, yes, it was about imagined fear, but it was not about, it was not about creativity. It was not about about building. It was about breaking. It was a conversation about retreating and building walls and digging, whatever you wanna call ’em, bunkers or other, [00:12:00] I mean, you could use every kind of war.

Metaphor you can think of, but this notion about positioning ourselves for imagining a better future, about imagining how we work together. Imagining how we get along is just, it was missing completely. It was just gone. And you see what happens when. We lose that sense of creativity and positive imagination.

Takema: Absolutely.

Eric: Do you have other thoughts about what you have seen recently and how that’s, and we’ll talk in the second part of this, we’ll talk more about the future, but again, how do you tap into that positive creativity, that positive imagination?

Takema: I think that we have to be careful about what we’re being fed in our society and through our media.

We really do dine on a diet of fear. In America, most of our media, whether it be left or right, is still very fear-based. And I think fear is the first thing that shuts our imagination [00:13:00] down, right? Because now we have to go into a survival mode. Now we have to constrict ourselves. We have to bring ourselves just back into a medium mind and us versus them kind of paradigm.

And so I think we have to be really clear, careful about what we’re feeding ourselves and what we’re feeding our minds and where we’re putting our energy and. Focus. Yeah, and I think we can bring more of what we have known from artistic practice. I think tapping into that more expansive, more abundant imagination requires again, us not to be in the presence of fear, but to also really be grounded in.

First and foremost, our own humanity. And we, again, we live in a society that is moving so quickly, right? So not just what are we feeding on in terms of fear, but also the pace of our society does not allow us those moments to be, to sit with ourselves and to be really clear about what is possible. I’m really hoping that [00:14:00] these circumstances.

Will force us into that space, into a more reflective space, force us to really slow down and not just do, and really think beyond the present moment and think a little bit more long term. And hopefully his election gives us the next four years to do that.

Eric: Yeah, we’re gonna spend a fair amount of time contemplating our navels, I’ll tell you that much.

You talk about taking care of yourself. I tried and, and you certainly have done that. You I did. Moved to Jamaica. Can you talk a little bit about that? That’s so incredible.

Takema: But it was about many of the things that I talked about, slowing down a different pace of life and being able to clear the space for myself as a leader to have the type of grounded clarity that I need to have.

To vision and imagine in terms of what’s required of me. So yeah, I moved in 2020 to Jamaica and I have found that type, that space of solace and solitude and [00:15:00] also perspective, right? Because leaving the United States has given me a global perspective, and it’s also just helping me see like how we function inside with 50 states versus how the world functions outside.

Side of that, and no, that was really important for me. Even while my work is a hundred percent invested in the states, it was really important for me to step out and get a bigger perspective and to slow down and get

Eric: clear. Yeah. So not the last stop on the F Train Jamaica, the Caribbean nation, Jamaica.

Not sure. Jamaica. Eric, not Jamaica.

Takema: Tamika help.

Eric: Let’s talk a little bit about Converge, about the practice and who you’re working with these days.

Takema: Yeah, so I am really gifted to work with an amazing team of practitioners, folks who’ve been in this work for a while, who are on my team and our partners. Who remain committed to racial equity, social justice.

Our clients include [00:16:00] nonprofits. We work very closely with the ACL U. We’ve been working with them on a stunning project to work across the south and be more strategic. We also do work with philanthropic organizations who are committed to moving resources to social justice issues, as well as family foundations who, again, are trying to do the right thing with their wealth.

So. We get a, an opportunity to work with folks who are opening to expanding their imagination around what’s possible with resources and what we want the world that our children to inherit to look like.

Eric: We’re gonna take a very quick break and be back with Taima Robinson right after this. You are listening to, let’s Hear It, a podcast about foundation and nonprofit communications hosted by Eric Brown and Kirk Brown.

If you’re enjoying this episode, you may just be a rule breaker. Tune in to break Fake Rules, a new limited series podcast with Glen Gallic, CEO of the [00:17:00] KY Foundation. Hear from leaders in philanthropy, nonprofits, government media, and more to learn about challenges they’ve overcome by breaking fake rules and which rules we should commit to breaking together.

We are also sponsored by the Conrad Previs Foundation. Check out their amazingly good podcast, and we’re not just saying that. Stop and talk. Hosted by Previs Foundation, CEO. Grant Ola. You can find them at stop and talk podcast.com. And now back to the show. Welcome back to, let’s Hear It. My guest today is Taima Robinson, the CEO and Co-founder of Converge, and as we now are processing this election and what it means for us, we are also, I think, examining this question around racial justice, around equity.

There are a lot of, there will be people who will say. That the reason that the Democrats lost was because they were talking about [00:18:00] these things, and to me that just feels perfectly and entirely wrong. But I’d like to get your own take on where the status of the movement is and how we can build on this, learn from it, and move forward.

Takema: This is pretty raw, Eric, because I am still in the process of, of processing it myself, and I’m proud to call. Many, particularly in black women leaders, good friends who are on the front lines of pushing Vice President Harris forward and supporting that work, many of them are very much in mourning right now.

And not just mourning the outcome, but mourning the effort that was put into this. And so I just really want to shout out and give a lot of respect to black women leaders and black women voters. People never felt up, so just wanna make sure we begin with those acknowledgements. But I think that it means that there is [00:19:00] a lot of work to be done.

I tell people all the time, it’s a lot easier to talk about the Republican party a lot simpler. I think there’s a lot more, there are a lot more homogenous than the left, and we have a much bigger tent with a lot more people and interests of interest to. Accommodate and to make sure are included. I have a lot of critiques, I, a lot of critiques myself that I think are really important for the Democratic Party to look at.

We, I think we all know that the timing that Vice President Kamala Harris was put into was already back against the wall. Many black women leaders, we know what that means, what it means to show a half, to have that level love responsibility put on us in the fourth quarter on the game. Just acknowledging that was what we were up against.

But also I think that there was a conversation that we have continued to back burn about a third [00:20:00] party because I think we’re often progressing. I. Radicals, liberals, right? Those are three different sets of groups that we’re trying to organize just under the Democratic Party, right? I think those three groups didn’t have a meeting.

There was no time to come to some clarity, and I think we have to acknowledge that there was a lot of splintering even between those particular factions, those folks who find themselves loft of center liberal. Progressives down to the radicals, that those things also splintered apart and we can’t ignore what that was caused by.

And the current administration’s stance on Gaza, I don’t think was factored in into what these results would look like. And I think we have to sit and that. So I just think that there is a lot of work that has to happen on the left side of this conversation. And I think that. We have to really get in a room with one another and either decide that this is something we can build [00:21:00] together, or it’s time to put some real energy into a third party option, um, that may better represent those parts of the Democratic party that did not feel heard in this election.

Eric: Hmm. And what kind of conversations are you having with your clients who are working on racial justice Inequ? I. I

Takema: think many of them are moving first into a space of safety. Um, they’re thinking first and foremost about security and safety of their grantees, of people in their community that they serve, who may be targets of this administration and of its policies.

They’re to fortify them. Before this comes down, I think everybody is really moving into that mode of security and safety has mostly been the message. A lot of people sending out letters, communicating to the field that we see you, [00:22:00] we got you. We’re not going anywhere in that. In the next couple of days and weeks, we really need to figure out how to make sure folks are first and foremost safe.

That’s been the major tone that I think has been going on in the li Those letters that I’ve received in a lot of the conversations off our leaders. It’s, we’re in a mode around safety. We’ve been, we’ve seen this and we know that this time is going to be even more. Even more.

Eric: Even more. More. Yeah. Kamal Bells said to take care of yourselves.

It’s like putting the oxygen mask on before you help your kids on the plane. The folks have to get themselves into the right place so that they can begin to think about the future. I go back to your notion of imagineering because I do think that when at moments like this, it is also an opportunity to think differently and that this is a really good time for that.

The decks are cleared for good, or ill mostly for ill, but still it [00:23:00] might open up an opportunity for something. More interesting, more dynamic, more engaging. How are you thinking about, what does that future look like to you? What does a better multiracial democracy, you name it, what does the world look like to you?

Now that we have almost permission to be, to dream again because the old, like whatever we were doing. Some of it didn’t work or not enough of it did work, and so we have the chance to build. What’s that? What does that feel like and look like?

Takema: Oh, you know what’s so interesting is, you know, there’s this notion of make America great again and I’ll think, I would say make America great.

For the first time, right? I don’t know because people of color, minorities or L-G-B-T-Q folks have ever experienced that America that we want to go back to. What we continue to [00:24:00] show up for though is this possibility of America. This possibility of America that was cast. And that is the thing that we continue to try to go back to, to bring forward and into fruition.

And I think that’s a really interesting notion that we keep. Trying to return to what, for better or worse, was more marketing material than it was reality for anyone. And so I think it’s time to revisit in the collective what is an occlusive America that makes space for all of us that makes space for.

The generations that are coming that are browner, that are blacker, that are more female, that are more pansexual, right? What, what is the future that we’re building for this next generation that does not reflect the. The current popular vote in America, right? Who are young people are [00:25:00] asking for an expansion of their rights, whether it be reproductive rights or their rights and access to services as trans people, right?

So I think I’m looking for an America that reflects the future and these future generations that I believe are just more naturally. Inclusive of themselves and of one another. And even with this setback, I still pray and ground myself on the notion that demography is destiny. And I believe that our young people will save this country and have already shown us that they are brave and that they are courageous, and that they have the imagination that we are lacking.

Eric: When you have these conversations with clients, I, I needless to say, everyone’s going to ask you, what, what do we do now? Specifically, how do we think through a strategy in the future? What are some of the first [00:26:00] conversations gonna look like? What are the questions you’re gonna ask them? How are you gonna help them think through what the next six months and a year and four years looks like?

Takema: So the first thing I’m gonna say is we can’t do it until you calm down, until we get,

until you get grounded. And until we can do that in a space where fear, if not the impetus, love must be the impetus of our imagination. And so a lot of what we’re doing right now is just helping our clients. Express themselves, walk through the grief process and get grounded with 10 toes down before we can jump into the strategy work.

We have to honor the space that we’re in right now. And I think people are still processing. And then I think we will be more equipped to jump into the strategy work. And I [00:27:00] think when we jump into the strategy work. We need to be thinking long-term strategy, right? We didn’t. We got here because there was a multi-decade strategy, whether it was to get the courts or the local legislators or the state houses, right?

We have to plan. Generational increments and not just in four year presidential cycles, which is what we find ourselves doing on the left. We need to go take care of our business and like I said, have those hard conversations amongst ourselves about where we’re divided. We have to begin. To lay the groundwork for work that we may not see blossom for another 10 or 15 years.

As many of my mentors have told me, we have to play chess and not checkers, and so you can’t do strategy work if you’re coming in with anxiety and frantic energy. We need leaders that are grounded, that are paused, [00:28:00] poised, and rested.

Eric: That’s so interesting. Yeah. It’s almost like you’re, it’s. Bring a large set of paper bags for everybody to breathe into so it

Takema: can, we’re gonna do some yoga, we’re gonna do some meditation, we’re gonna do some somatic work, because that’s what’s required of leaders in this moment when we as leaders are being looked to to help folks ground and find their way.

And so we can’t do strategy work if we are bringing. That kind of energy to it. So that’s the first thing that we are helping people do, is to breathe through this, to get through this moment of panic and anxiety and get to a place where we can be clearheaded and flatfooted about a long-term future.

Eric: I think your point about the long-term thinking though is essential.

And for funders out there, we all know. Funders. I used to work for a foundation. I could speak for my people or my former people. They like the [00:29:00] shiny thing. They wanna see results, they wanna see results soon. But the fact of the matter is that change takes time. And that the funders absolutely, who are patient over long periods of time, or we’re talking about decades, not grant cycles, are the ones who will.

Achieve the things that they’re trying to achieve. And that kind of patience is, I think something we all have to be preaching first, second, and third. We gotta be patient. We have to think about this in the long term and Absolutely. Yeah. And it’s hard. It’s hard because most people’s time horizons at a foundation are shorter.

The time horizons of the work that you’re trying to, the impact.

Takema: The impact. And Eric, I’ve done a lot of work in philanthropy. Big part of my career has been there and I’m, I’m proud that it’s. Slowly changing. I probably, I operate in the 10% of philanthropy that support social justice work, and I think we are beginning to see more patient [00:30:00] capital, more larger, much larger investment, much longer investment, and it will take time for those things to mature.

Just like I said in our first segment, reflecting on the work I’ve done in the south, like Georgia. It’s almost a swing state because of those investments. North Carolina is almost a swing state. Because of those investments, Florida’s going the wrong direction. We still have infrastructure across the region we didn’t have 10 years ago.

Stacey Abrams is a result of those types of investments. And so we also have proof points now, right? Even if we’re not necessarily, haven’t had the full impact, we have proof points that we’re headed in the right direction, and that’s the way that we hope philanthropy continues to invest.

Eric: I have to say that I, this was a really nice therapy session.

My

Takema: life. Um, Eric,

Eric: you’re a fabulous, you’re a fabulous therapist and I really appreciate [00:31:00] your work, what you do, your way, your approach to this work. I’m deeply grateful for you and the work that you’re doing. I can’t thank you enough. Taima Robinson, CEO, co-founder of Converge. Thank you so much for this.

Thank you for helping me.

Takema: Thank you Eric. Thank you too. It means a lot to just build this kind of community and that’s what we need right now. We need to all be able to catch our breath or to be in community. ’cause that’s what heals all of us and that’s what’s gonna get us through.

Eric: I couldn’t agree more.

Thank you again. All right.

Takema: Thank

Eric: you

Takema: Eric.

Kirk: And we’re back. So, um, so yeah, so I, I have to say the, uh, the circular staircase steadily moving, but not knowing exactly what direction, but knowing we’re. We, we needed to hear that. Right. And so is that metaphor working for you, Kirk?

Eric: It really is. I’m holding onto it.

My knuckles are white. I’m not gonna let it go right now. I’ve been experiencing a lot of circular firing squad, but I think [00:32:00] that the circular staircase is a better image.

Kirk: Well, you know, TE’s been doing this, so she’s co-founded Converse, but she’s been doing this for 20 years and has worked across, my gosh.

I mean the Packard Foundation, blue Meridians, Steven Spielberg’s, Hartland Foundation. Um. She’s touched philanthropy in all of its shapes and sizes, and also has been involved with some incredible on the ground, uh, policy initiatives in a whole bunch of different places, including l Louisiana. So tell me about Taima.

How did you find Taima? And, uh, tell me about this conversation.

Eric: Well, this is one of those things that you can’t remember where you met somebody or where you found out about them, but they were always stuck in your mind and you always wanted to have that conversation. And that’s what happened. It was one of these, yeah.

We really need to talk with Tema and, uh, so Oh, so I, I had an idea as, uh, yes. Okay. As, as we were in the break that we probably should, we should get some, let’s hear it. Branded paper bags.

Do you tell for people to breathe into? [00:33:00] There you go. Right? Balancing, centering, moderate, moderate, their, their respiration, right?

Kirk: You start feeling sick to your stomach can just, up to you.

Eric: You get a little dizzy. You just just pull out your, lets hear. Paper bag. Yeah. And you breathe into it. But Temo is such an interesting person and at the, it is.

Important when you do, I believe when you do social justice work and that you have to maintain both your sense of optimism and joy and your understanding about the time framing the timeframes that we’re working in. And I think that she has that exactly right. I think she really does have this grounded understanding about what the opportunities are, what the challenges are, and the time that it’s gonna take in order to achieve them so that you can stay grounded and sane while you’re doing this work.

And I also came up with the image of. Like, what kind of dog do you need for this, this work? Do you want a Chihuahua or a St. Bernard, you know, someone who’s [00:34:00] like yiping and yapping and doing all kinds of crazy stuff, or somebody who’s just gonna slowly walks up the Alps with the brandy around their neck to save the hiker.

And I, I, I think the Saint Bernard might be a better, might be a better model.

Kirk: Yeah, there you go. There you go. Well, one of the things I loved about your conversation with Takea and you know, here’s an avid advocate for black women. And ha has there been a constituency that’s done more to support our progressive values and our progressive priorities than black women?

I think not perhaps, and that Temas doing this work with converge based in New Orleans and doing this work in all parts of the country, but including the south and the deep South. Um, you know, it’s funny, I feel like we get to invite some of our voices of privilege into this conversation because we have tons of people in our country who are familiar with.

Needing to do this work in the most difficult of circumstances, doing this work, [00:35:00] one step, one breath, one moment at a time. It doesn’t always look that promising. The, the, the, um, the balance of power can be organized heavily, uh, not in our fa in our favor. And yet you can still, you can still create real change and hearing, talking with, talk about.

Working in ways to help communities of color specifically thrive and do this in areas of the country where that challenge and that battle has been most difficult to succeed in. Um, these are the kind of voices I think we need to hear right now because we’re about to enter a period that I think many of us think is gonna be so difficult for so many people.

And yet voices like this can show us the way forward and help us keep doing the work even though the circumstances feel so difficult.

Eric: I, yeah, I completely agree with you. And this is one of these, I, I mentioned the circular firing squad. It, you look at folks coming outta the election, they go, oh, we, here’s what we did wrong.

We talked too much about racial justice. We didn’t talk about the middle class enough. We didn’t communicate to those people who went populist on us [00:36:00] enough and, and so on. And, and many of those things may be right and wrong at the same time. But the really important thing now is to take that real step back and, and look at, I had this conversation the other day with, with another.

Colleague, which is, let’s also look at what went right. Mm-hmm. Let’s look at where messages worked. Let’s look at districts or communities or constituencies in which they, in which there were victories. There were a bunch of house races that flipped, and some of them were more centrist, but some of them weren’t.

And and just like, let’s take real stock of where we are, because I, I think that we have this tendency to go whipsawing from. One thing to the other, to the other, to the other. And, and that is not long-term thinking. That is as shorter term thinking as you can have. And I, I completely agree with Akima that now she’s looking at generational change.

And I get that and demographic change and I get that too. But demographics are not people. They’re just, [00:37:00] you know, large numbers of, of things. And, and we, we, at the same time, we have to be thinking about how. Are these really important constituencies that we have had long relationships with? How do you nurture them?

How do you think about them? How do you build them for the future? How do you take that And also look at the various other places in our country where there is need, and how do we bring that message together into something that we can all coalesce around rather than going bonking from. You know, left, right, left center to right center to left, center right.

So like, that’s crazy. And you, I just don’t think you can build any long-term change that way. And so that’s, that’s my kind of where I totally agree with Sima about these building, these long-term relationships, understanding that these things take time, not giving up even when something doesn’t go our way necessarily.

And building for the future. That was, I was really kind of inspired by that and it, it reminded me that, you know, we [00:38:00] have done a lot and we are going somewhere and we can get there, but we really have to be able to, we have to keep our heads on, on the, on our shoulders rather than going into a great big headless chicken freak cap.

Kirk: Yeah, and letting our lived experience and the work in the field actually guide us because we’re having, you know, legitimate experiences, you know, talking about this stuff and dealing with people in a real way. Yeah. No, it’s, it’s interesting, Eric, in terms of that stock taking, you know, part of this too is, is each of us doing our own research, you know, that the latest numbers that I’m seeing out of the presidential.

This election was decided by 760,000 votes across the swing states. Right. The national margin is 1.6%, you know, but the margin within these swing states is even closer. And so, you know, we’re, um, you know, we’re, we’re really, we’re really on, on the margins here in terms of the broader picture, but I think many of us would agree too, that.

There’s deeper work yet to be done, particularly as we come to this conversation about communications and how to speak [00:39:00] effectively and with urgency and with saliency and with authenticity across all of these different communities that we know we’re trying to mobilize, and folks like teak can. Actually help us see what that looks like because they are in the field doing the work in a meaningful way, day in, day out.

And um, and so for me that that’s one of the big headlines always. And it’s, it’s um, it’s kind of shocking to me that still so many decades into this, we’re coming off another one of these major inflection moments saying. What could we have done to communicate more effectively? Could we have been in the field more effectively?

Could we have been more consistent with our messaging and more, and, and, and brought more people in? So, and, and, and again, I, I look at the work that Converge is doing, and I think, my gosh, these are the folks that can help us organize our thinking, help us sort our way forward in a way that, um, that can help us create real change and lasting change.

Eric: Yeah, I, I agree. And, you know, I don’t, nobody has the perfect answer and things go wrong. There’s just no question that I. Things go [00:40:00] wrong or the times are you, you are sometimes, whatever, paddling upstream or something like that. We’re in this weird kind of populist, uh, bottleneck if, if you wanna call it that.

And people are frustrated and they’re concerned, and there’s a lot of change and a lot of fear. And the point, the hardest thing to do is to have the kind of imagination and creativity that Akima talks about in which you do. Imagine a better future in ways that bring people along, that inspire them to move forward.

And that that thing that she said about, you know, I am my, I am my ancestors’ wildest dream mm-hmm. Is, is really exciting. Mm-hmm. And it’s really powerful and important. And the question is, what is our wildest dream?

Kirk (2): Mm-hmm.

Eric: And, and how, which of our ancestors will have the opportunity to achieve that? And, and then what will it take to get there and how do we work towards that?

And how much, and understanding that these things will take time [00:41:00] and getting back to funders, he need to, if I was a funder, I would be thinking about what are my ancestor, well, you know, what are, what are the, my after bears wildest dream? Or what are my wildest dreams for, for, for my, the people who come after me?

Mm-hmm. And what will it take to get there? And how much money, and what are the conditions that have to prevail and how do I make those conditions riper and, and, and be there for that? And set the, you know, set things in in motion because I, I think, as I told Akima, like I, the foundation strategies have a tendency to, uh, mirror foundation, uh, staff times, so, you know.

Kirk (2): Yeah.

Eric: And the foundation that everybody averages around 12 years. Well, the strategies have a tendency to have about a 12 year arc. I’m

Kirk (2): guessing, you know,

Eric: at Helo we had an eight year term limits, and so our strategies had an eight year arc. Give or take. Yeah, yeah. So anyway, so that, so that’s my little take on that, which is that that kind of long term thinking and real creativity [00:42:00] is essential.

Mm-hmm. And without it, then we just do the circular flying squad and keep looking back at what we did wrong and then overcorrect and end up in a kind of, you know, this back and forth thing that is not good. Yeah. It is not good for the future.

Kirk: Yeah. Yeah. No. Well, you know, I love Taki’s, uh, mention of, to unlocking our positive imagination instead of just, you know, all of us consuming this diet of fear.

You know, I wanna do a shout out to another podcast, pod Save America. Had the Harris Campaign team on, on a November 26th episode. It was really interesting to listen to it. And in terms of your, um. You know, let’s, let’s understand what, what went on and what went wrong. Part, one of the most interesting parts of that conversation for me, and this was just mentioned in one sentence in passing, was a knowing comment that the Harris folks said to each other about just the, the repetition with which their oppositions messaging was everywhere.

All the time across all formats, across all media, that the, [00:43:00] that the communications environment that they found themselves in was being dominated by opposition messages. And, and, and so for me, I think that’s one of the big telling parts of all this is in terms of that inventory work that we need to do, could we just sum up, let’s make a list.

How often are we out there? How often are they out there? And what’s cutting through more effectively? Right. And that’s, that’s not even about. This policy or that policy, that message or that message. It’s really about what is our investment been in creating the backbone and the infrastructure. It requires to be everywhere all the time.

Because you’ve said Eric, you, you don’t get to choose which medium you’re in, right? Yeah. You need to assume your audience is in every one of them and work all of them. It’s quite possible that one of our big takeaways from this election is that, is that we. We didn’t do as good of a job. Right, right. Is that, and, and, and so anyway, so that’s just one of my, my things I think about too.

I think there’s

Eric: two things going on there, Kirk, which is one of them is, is what are your tactics? Are you everywhere all the time? And are [00:44:00] you consistent with your message? The other thing is what are you, what are you saying and what are you talking about? And it is so much easier to sow fear and the hatred, frankly, and distance and separation easier to break than to build.

So they have the, you know, whatever, if we wanna talk, uh, war metaphors. They have the high ground position and the people who are talking about the future and hope and, and connection and bridging. We are on the low ground and there’s a moat and someone’s pouring hot oil down on us. And, and therefore, you can be as disciplined as you like and be in every single media market and every.

Platform and every, everything, and have every celebrity and all that other jazz, but you’re, you’re telling a different story and you’re painting a different picture and it makes it harder. And the, the trick is though, that the power of that connection of that, that hopeful creative imagineering [00:45:00] is, is valuable and wonderful, and it gives people joy and it gives you something to build on.

And these guys, they just want it to break. And now they have this thing and it’s broken and they’re gonna continue to break it because they don’t care. And that’s how they keep power and that’s how they do all that stuff. So it is much harder to, to be positive and to be hopeful. And so you could be, you basically tied in tools, but if you are, if you are breaking, it’s so much easier just to, you know, throw grenades into the opposition and they splinter and fall apart.

And it’s, it’s much easier to win that way. But that’s life too bad. That’s why we’re progressive is because we have hope. And we’re trying to build and, you know, bridge across differences and things like that. It’s twice as hard. Tough luck. That’s what we got. Let’s, that’s, that’s what we got.

Kirk: That’s the work we’re gonna do, right?

We’re gonna keep doing it and, and we’re gonna keep grounding that work and authentic relationship that really authentically brings people into this conversation and makes them central parties to it. So let’s listen to Converge talk about this in their own words, so they understand that [00:46:00] power concedes nothing without a demand citing Frederick Douglas.

Douglas and shifting power requires risk and exponential growth. So converge is committed to the creation of a radically just new world where communities of colors thrive because. As Asada Shakur reminds us, we have nothing to lose but our chains, that’s an, that’s it, Mr. Brown. We have nothing to lose but our chains, these are the voices we need to listen to, to help guide us out of this wild house.

And I

Eric: re, I respect those voices so very much. And it was delightful to speak with Te, she made me feel better. I hope she made. Made everybody else out there feel better and for the pod save American people who are listening to the show. Thank you very much for your episode. I will go back and listen to it.

Maybe we’ll do an episode exchange or something like that.

Kirk: Okay. That’s great. Taima, thank you so much for coming on. Let’s hear it. That was awesome Eric. Thank you for that conversation and for all of you. This our last episode in 2024. Thanks for being with us these past years and we will see you. Raring to go in 2025.

Mr. Brown, thank you so much.

Eric: All right. Happy New Year.

Kirk: Happy New Year. We’ll see you next time. Okay, everybody. That’s it for [00:47:00] this episode. Please let us know if you have any thoughts about what you heard today or people we should have on this show, and that definitely includes yourself. And we’d like to thank

Eric: our indefatigable producer, Harper Brown,

Kirk: John Ali, the tuneful and inspiring composer of our theme music, our sponsor.

The Lumina Foundation, and please check out Lumina’s terrific podcast, today’s students tomorrow’s talent, and you can find that@luminafoundation.org.

Eric: We certainly thank today’s guest, and of course, all of you,

Kirk: and most importantly, thank you, Mr. Brown.

Eric: Oh, no, no, no, no. Thank you, Mr. Brown.

Kirk: Okay, everybody, till next time.